Frank, I had a read of this link, and I may be able to shead some light as to why the early wear and difficulty in setting the timing in some cases....at the risk of exposing some poor assembly/machining, but this is what I've found on three post '04 955 engines to date.
The cam sprocket mountings on the camshafts were over machined in diameter(too small). When the sprockets were mounted they took on a position which had them running in a small epileptic rotation because they weren't centred. I could see a gap on one side of the inner diameter of the sprocket to camshaft.
The effect has a thrashing effect on the cam chain. The 1st engine I found this in had slightly over 18k on it and was assembled in March'03. It had numerous other serious engine issues too (on those,another time perhaps).
As you can imagine the cam chain is getting a s!$% of a time having the guts yanked out of it at every lobe loading. It was almost loose enough that it was ready to jump the inlet sprocket (evident by markings on chain plates and sprocket inner face).
I also noted the timing was well out, obviously due to the stretched chain, and the performance was down, sounded 'wooly' etc etc. The bike was one owner, quite a gentle rider, and valve cover never opened, and had been regulary serviced by a dealer, book stamped and dated.
On inspecting the tensioner I noted by the markings on the plunger it had moved one ratchet tooth at a time as normal...but, looking at the staining on the plunger, I could see that it was starting to move out, tooth at a time, far more rapidly. Then, in one movement had jumped THREE teeth! Obviously the chain was getting well worn. Measured over 23link pins, a new chain for that model should be 142mm +/-0.5mm. at 13kg suspension. This one was 143.45mm. I know, the manual states 147.63mm as the limit....but at the current measurement the plunger had only three further teeth left to go before being at its limit. I really wouldn't want to gamble going the next 4.5mm in chain wear!
The outrigger bearing suffered from the irratic loading too.
Also, the quality of the steel blade encapsulated in the blade may well have contributed, as a dealer mechanic stated in the Rat thread, (another said it wasn't steel, but rubber,lol). Unscientific I know, but I have purposely bent old ones for interest, from '93 models to '05, and they ALL 'felt' the same regarding pressure to bend. Who know's........
I read no mention of the sprocket to cam mount excessive clearance in the thread, but I did read about early and frequent cam chain replacements.
At the time of the job, the bike was literally a month out of warranty. I have no comment regarding that point.
Seems like Triumph had/has some quality control problems
wonder if these were assembled pre or after the fire????
Good write up...if a bit scary for a 955i owner ( gulp) ok
so what were the other manufacturing problems you noticed???
I mean...you'd expect a cam BELT to do 25K...a chain??....I've run 80K on a Yamaha one , before splitting it and replacing it, with still some way to go on the tensioner!!
Don't think you guys REALLY want to know Frank, seriously shameful reading and the list and pic's that support to long and.....assembled post fire.
I HATE THEM! I shudder every time one rolls in, the build quality is total s!$% to be blunt. Makes my job a f***in misery when I have to call the owner with bad news. And equally annoying, I have spent massive hours of unpaid time correcting the faults....without telling the customer, just to protect the Triumph name.....bloody sick of it We all want to know we have a good bike, and can accept the odd problem, but above all, we expect the 'feel good' factor, I have worked hard to continue that....at my expence, no warranty for these poor buggers eh!
And to top it off, another with head gasket leak today.
Just dealt with one over Easter....another lady owner, not thrashed at all, booked back in at a later date for head off.
I was going to post some pic's and alerts a couple of years ago, but thought better of it.
You guys thought the T595 was bad......they just had teething problems......
And the 1050 Speed Triple, jeez.....!
Just not paying attention, too much rushing, too much talking, stuffing it up for the good staff at Triumph....and worst of all, the customers and THE product.
Leaving it there.....fuming Frank....FUMING!
if I was dying with cancer < insert disease of choice...I'd MUCH rather know than be lied to.........
C'mon, my shoulders are big enough, I've owned lemons before mate,( christ, my 'unburstable' RF900 Suzy was possibly the WORST, most unreliable I've ever owned.......and I include my mates 78 XS750 Yam in that list!!!!!!!!)
give us your (obviously) expert opinion on the later 955i motahs.......guts n all!!!
lol, yeah, but can the rest of em! You must be ex media....hound hound hound, looking for a scoop 70% of them are already known faults Frank.....problems are posted all over this site.
The last thing I want to do is scare people away from Triumph's mate......but
....other than holes in crankcases, weeping head gaskets, alternators burning out, regulator/rectifiers cooking, alternator to reg/rec loom tight as a banjo string, reg/rec located in a place where it can't cool correctly (causing most charging faults)crankcase breathers not connected at crankcase and/or airbox, airboxes not sealing to manifold's, airbox oil drain tubes not blanked, coil seals not fitted correctly, speedo drive prone to damage at tyre changes, speedo loom incorrectly secured at radiator causing loom failure, ignition switch loom prone to rubbing and shorting on RH fork, huggers cracking, head to valve cover poor machining leaving alloy particles throughout engine, (includes cam bearing cap faces), loose starter sprags, solenoid wiring shorting to LH rear engine mounting.....they go well and should last for years and no, not service induced problems, these are faults found on Daytona 955i's that have only been to dealer for 1st oil change....I'm talking ONE OWNER machines with VERY low k's. Some of these faults left long enough are terminal to the engine. That includes ALL airbox faults.
All I can recommend is that if you own one....check the above mentioned items. If you're looking at buying one.....again check as much as you can. If your's is a goodie & faultless, you have a rare one. I have NEVER had a 955i from '02 onwards pass a leak down test. That is, all cylinders reading below 15% leak, from as low as 8000km. They have ALL had airbox faults at least causing inlet valve damage. Most develop the charging fault, nearly all break the hugger. Early versions have crap machining & casting. However, the crap casting and airbox faults continues on some machines, from NEW.......crankcases, sumps...and dare I say it....swingarm (only one so far failed) was an 04 RS, single side swingarm. Had enough Frank?
Like I say, don't want to put people off, and lets face it EVERY brand has its faults, some brands have models that are lemons....the 02,03,04 Daytona 955i is Triumph's citrus tree. It's all down to quality control and dealer workshops paying attention to the basics. Some do many don't We live in a fast paced, market driven profit focused world....for that we pay a price.
The good news.....once they're sorted, they are indeed SORTED, and ARE a bloody good bike!
And yes, some of you will joke about rebuilding a lemon to make it reliable....then again, most of the owners bare with the burden of repair and ride on And thats why I love my old '93 Daytona 900......well constructed, reliable, fast and solid
OOOOHHHH Kerry, you will join me in the naughty corner now, did you not know that ther5e ia nothing wrong with Triumphs at all except for isolated cases of problems which every manufacturer has. To even suggest that there are problems with the bike(s) is tantamount to heresy.....
Had several of the faults mentioned above on me 1050 S3, most of which were fixed under warranty but my bike's currently off the road again as mentioned elsewhere due to sprag clutch failure ripping teeth of the intermediate gear and starter motor. It's a whole heap of inconvenience when your bikes stuck in a dealers for weeks on end but a whole lot worse when you're paying for it. My bikes been off the road due to manufacturing fault or poor dealer service for around 12% of its short cossetted life. Not good enough is it? Triumph after sales (note, not 'customer service') don't want to know. Severely miffed with the whole experience to the point of contemplating turning japanese (not in a rude way either) again.
Well X-man, best we pull up a pint, sit in the corner and 'pretend' these things don't happen eh What the hell do any of us know anyway.......but the camera doesn't lie
Sorry to hear that Vinny, and I mean that sincerely. At least the warranty is covering most of it I hope. And like I had said mate, once sorted life on a Trumpy gets better Just to make you feel better, many S3's are doing high mileages with NO MORE ISSUES.....
A mate works for a major Jap brand, he calls in every week or so telling me about the latest gearbox grenades, ring failures, clutch breakages, ECU faults, alternator deaths......
And I reckon we should leave this here before we depress ourselves too much......as I photograph the the crack I just found in an 06 S3 sump surrounded by poor casing, airbox leaking, rear brake switch loom so short it won't click into the connector, solenoid lead rubbing on LH rear engine mount.....and only 25k......grrrr, another 'happy' day Frank, you're a stirrer....... now moving my stool to the naughty corner forthwith.....
Lol, Riggsy....was waiting for your input, and sorry if I have lost respect with you mate, ......and no, certainly NOT a journo, I accused Frank of that! in jest of course! (I will rarely touch anything other than a Triumph, tyre fitting excluded) The last non-Triumph on worked on was a 07MV1000F4 a couple of months ago, it too had issues.....as does a lot of machines. I didn't make the bikes....I just find the problems and do everything I can to sort them out. Some problems are from poor servicing, some from manufacture.....I'm only giving you guys the manufacture faults as that's how this thread started. I'm just on the coal face, as an INDEPENDENT, just telling it as it is and giving you guys an insight on what it's like dealing with this stuff EVERY day. And it gets worse, and because we're all being honest and mature about this.....and because this one is such a pearler, and its a POST FIRE 'ass'embly.......I have just removed the valve cover of a 02 Speed Triple, engine date 8/9/01....only to find the ends of the camshafts broken off at the outrigger bearings. Sitting in the oil wells like two lost washers The owner bought it with only 1500km on the clock, has NEVER been opened, this was to be its first shim check and full 20k service. He has changed his own oil & filter every 5k, and is a fussy owner. I have just got off the phone with him,(lives 500km away) and he's gutted....but LOVES the bike, so I will fix it as requested I will post pic's of this one......just for interest, you guys can be the judge of what you think caused the problem. My opinion....the cam ladder was assembled after the outriggers were first tightened, causing the cams to tip up and crack the outrigger ends of the cams. Over time they eventually broke off completely, the cams then had no positive locators, drifted to the left while milling at the alloy of the head......see what you guys reckon? Remember...it has NEVER been opened before.
Frank!!! bet you regret the 'BUMP' now eh........you've pulled me out of the box I was content to sit in quietly.....
It's ok mate.......NEVER apologise, sign of weakness....
No, I not a Journo, was a Bike courier......so I've had my share of 18 year old, 200K miles, still running Bikes AND brand new, 3K, Suzuki RF900 that bit the dust every 4 weeks without fail!!!!..blimey, when I had to have the crank on the GPZ9 re ground, at 135K, the cams, though a tiny bit pitted, on some exhaust lobes, looked fookin good to me!!!!!!
To be honest, some of the faults I'd heard about, but NOT the s!$%ty 'in motah' engineering...or lack of, so I am still standing, but I agree, whilst I never owned my Trident 9 for long, it did seem 'Over Engineered' and built to last, but hey, if even Suzuki can fook up now and again!!!
here, i think we ALL need a pint, whilst we wait for our motah's to grenade!!!!
That 'porous casting' seems to of been around since the early models though, christ, is there no feedback /quality control at Triumph?????
I remember reading a Bike article lately, where a well respected engine tuner in UK had said that after stripping the Big Four plus Triumph, he was surprised at
A How good the materials were in the Yammy motah
B How bad the Honda seemed to of gotten....
C How many motahs the Triumph race teams get through , unless they keep WELL 'on top' of them...................
I guess at the end of the day its a problem all manufactures of anything mechanical face. Us, as consumers, just have to live with it.
But what really annoys me is that so much of it can be easily put right at the source. It shouldn't be up to the consumer to pay for the poor quality control of the manufacturers.
And I whole heartedly agree with your A-B-C comments, and yes, Honda are getting worse. Suzuki are made down to a price rather than up to a standard. I get very positive comments from other mechanics that spanner other brands about how well engineered the Triumph motors are.....even the later ones.
As for the race motors....that can be said of ANY engine, they all rebuild/replace on a regular basis.
And you comments about the Jappers you've owned Frank will hopefully make Riggsy feel a lot better:wink:
So, in a nutshell, I still believe the Triumph product is the better of the bunch overall.....HONESTLY And would I sell mine and stop spannering them exclusively?...yeah right!! Cheers guys
Has there not been a lack of oil pressure issue which would quickly cause the alloy cam bearing faces to wear excessively.
The cams would then be rocking in their bearings as they rotated, putting pressure on the cam end shoulders, eventually prising them off.
There seems to be evidence of this on the sides of the 2 loose cam caps.
Good try Triple X......but way off base. If it was oil feed the cam ladder bearings and outrigger bearings would be badly scored....they're not Assembly is only a very small contributor. Mainly on the part of the inattention of the guy checking QC on assembly.
Think.....machining at manufacture. One of the photos is the give away
Ignore this earlier opinion also, its a red herring on my part:
"the cam ladder was assembled after the outriggers were first tightened, causing the cams to tip up and crack the outrigger ends of the cams. Over time they eventually broke off completely, the cams then had no positive locators, drifted to the left while milling at the alloy of the head......see what you guys reckon?"
So..the Cam carriers ( as I call 'em) were just not tightened down in the correct sequence upon assembly.......right??
At the factory.........wonderful.....I feel like replacing my air filter now, and while I'm in there pulling the cam cover and having a shufty!!!!!!!!!
Surely this is a basic routine, which must be hammered(sic) into the assembly line crew so much that it's almost automatic................maybe it was only a few hundred out of ................tens of thousands...!!!!!!!!
Lets hope its only a VERY small handful Frank.....re-read this bit bud:
Ignore this earlier opinion also, its a red herring on my part:
"the cam ladder was assembled after the outriggers were first tightened, causing the cams to tip up and crack the outrigger ends of the cams. Over time they eventually broke off completely, the cams then had no positive locators, drifted to the left while milling at the alloy of the head......see what you guys reckon?"
Just looking back through your posts Frank.....you did say "guts and all" eh.... Another 02 first registered Daytona955i ....manufacture date 20/04/01 came in on a trailer earlier today. New customer, 18,500km. Burnt out alternator and reg/rec...broken hugger...leaking head.....noisy starter(centre bolt not torqued to 55Nm). Back to the naughty corner for me then......
...oh, and forgot to mention, this owner too loves his bike, wants it fixed, and wasn't that fussed if not just a bit disappointed.....we're a very resiliant lot here in NZ and pretty happy with our Triumph's So maybe all this is not such a big deal eh?
Yes, I can see the cams have floated across out of position after the ends popped off.
But what caused the ends to break off both camshafts ?
Are you suggesting a manufacturing / machining fault ?
Correct X-Man.....Yes Triple X, possibly (most likely machining) but can you see the problem?
I'm going to dry assemble another set of cams into this later next week and measure a few areas and see if the theory matches what I suspect......
Rec, no need to be put off mate.......you're just reading about the types of things that effect all manufacturers.....you just haven't read theirs yet As I stated, right at the beginning, I had thought about posting some of my findings a couple of years back....but thought better of it. However, we know what we know, and can deal with most if not all of it. Better to admit the faults and do something about it rather than 'pretend' all is roses, yes?
By no means are Triumph alone with build issues. And you will notice the problems we have come across haven't had any of the owners changing to another make.
By far, more Triumph's come through here that are built well and are impeccably reliable returning high mileages.
We're only talking about a handful of 'duds', certainly no reason to drop them! The number one 'killer' for ANY motorcycle is dodgy repairs and poor servicing, yet people complain that a particular mate has a bike that has nothing but trouble.....then you find out that it hasn't had correct servicing, hardly the fault of the bike, yet the brand is run down amongst his group of friends etc etc......
If the problems were wide spread I would give this up in a heart beat. In the past I have worked servicing other makes, but I own Triumph's, ride Triumph's and have personally invested nearly 150k in tools, equipment and parts stock to service Triumph's.....and I wouldn't have ANYTHING else. If you truly enjoy your Triple, gives you a serious grin & thrill factor.....what else is going to fill the gap?
Go buy that new Triumph Rec
The cam ladder bearing surfaces do not match the ones on the head? Is it only camera angle or does it look like on cylinder #3 they match, then on #2 the ladder surface is slightly too much on the left and on #1 it is quite a bit on the left?
Assembled wrong way around or they were wrong on the casting already? Too large bolt holes on the ladder that allowed ladder to drift left? Cam ladder locating dowels missing from between ladder & head?
You're onto it Martin The camers angle not perfect, but it looks like the cam ladder mounting holes and dowels are incorrectly positioned at time of machining.
If you look down the plug tunnels also you can see that the cam ladder is located to far to the left.
I was hoping to mount another set of cams and run some measurements, bit tangled in servicing work at the moment.
I'm hoping it will give an idea of how it looked when when assembled at the factory and what sort of loading was on the cam outer flanges and outrigger faces.
Kerry: it looks like the cam ladder mounting holes and dowels are incorrectly positioned at time of machining.
Uh, oh. If that really is the case, then I'd imagine there was one man at Hinckley who machined the ladder wrong, second man who forced it on the head, third man who did the "dry" engine run and did not notice the binding cams and fourth man who did final QC and sent bike on it's way.
...we will know when I mount the new cams and check measurements. Either way, that bearing ladder is definately positioned further to the left than any other engines. The plug holes are offset. Due to how the ends broke away from the cams and have rubbed on the ends of the cams, getting an accurate 'as fitted' end float measurement is impossible. What I want to know is whether the ladder offset has contributed to the cam breakage alone, or whether we have two seperate issues. One being the machining in the first instance which is inaccurate, the second possibly incorrect mounting & fitting of the cams. Will know more soon.......
Sorry for the delay. Well it certainly looks as though two problems were built in. I have dry assembled a replacement set of identical cams using the original cam bearing ladder and outrigger bearing caps and carefully measured everything. Turns out that not only are the line borings placed 1.3mm to the left, but the outrigger bearings were an interference fit of 0.05mm. They are meant to provide end float in the range of 0.03-0.13mm with a service limit of 0.20mm.
So two problems really..... 1: Incorrect machining forcing the camshafts to the left, limiting any possibility of end float movement.
2: Camshaft outrigger journals machined too narrow (17.35mm, Outriggers were 17.40mm) allowing no end float at all, putting pressure on the camshaft outer rigger flanges causing fracture and allowing the camshafts to move to the left progressively machining slots in the head and sending small filings through the engine.
Hard to argue with the pictures TripleX.....but I really can't see Triumph doing anything about it. And yes, clearly manufacture fault. If this machine had done its 20,000km to have the valve cover lifted within the 2 years of purchase......it may have been a very different story.
I have removed the sump, pick up filter, checked throughout the gearbox, clutch, cylinder liners, starter bearing etc, and other than a few tiny particles in the sump, it seems its been a lucky escape.
The owner had done 3 oil changes himself, shame he didn't drain it through an open weave cloth, would have picked up on this earlier.
Even the cam chain is undamaged and measures perfectly, though it will be replaced.
I will be fitting a replacement set of cams from a Speed Triple with a manufacture date only 3 weeks beyond this one. Dry assembly shows good end float and no other issues....even with the bearing ladder & outriggers in the wrong place.
Just one of those things I guess, and no real harm done
Sorry Blizzard, missed your post.......
Yes, now that we know what has happened I will send the details to them......no holding my breath though, as I've sent them a few CD's now with faults found and have recieved no response since the first 4 years ago.
As I'm an independent service workshop, they have no interest in what we find.
ok, now that I'm thoroughly scarred......
As im still new to this, are you still talking about 1050's or 955i?
I have recently bought a 01 955i tiger (29'k km's) and just in the last 2 weeks have noticed even more engine noise than normal.
The local dealer recons its cam chain noise, but its the worst he's ever heard....
Should I just give him my wallet and run away?
Please tell me Kerry that your talking about 1050's and the 955 often need this MINOR thing done? Compared with the the Major issues you describe above?
and.....assembled post fire.
and no, not service induced problems, these are faults found on Daytona 955i's that have only been to dealer for 1st oil change....I'm talking ONE OWNER machines with VERY low k's. Some of these faults left long enough are terminal to the engine. That includes ALL airbox faults.
many don't
ch every manufacturer has. To even suggest that there are problems with the bike(s) is tantamount to heresy.....
now moving my stool to the naughty corner forthwith.....
, ......and no, certainly NOT a journo, I accused Frank of that! 
(I'm saying nowt else cos I'm in enough trouble on here as it is)
As I stated, right at the beginning, I had thought about posting some of my findings a couple of years back....but thought better of it. However, we know what we know, and can deal with most if not all of it. Better to admit the faults and do something about it rather than 'pretend' all is roses, yes?
